Curse

makosi · Oct 02, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Is it against the rules?

FrogDevourer · Oct 02, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

The guy probably wants to play the game instead of farming just because his time is limited.
...
He only wants to increase his gaming experience too and he really likes that armor and buys for example some game gold.

/nod /nod

Or he wants to buy a decent equipement and skills from weapon crafters and merchants. Nothing fancy like a FoW armor or a rare skinned weapon. Let's see:

- 80 skills per character (40 from both professions, far from UAS)
- 3 weapon slots used per character (let's say for three attributes out of 4/5) with 2 items
- 1 armor (1.5k) with 2 alternate caps for other attributes
- 1 set of 4 minor runes and 3 major/superiors for caps (+ a cheap major vigor)

and an average of
- 7k per item (crafted with materials, buying non perfect upgrades, or cheap green)
- 200g per rune and 5k for major vigor
- 1k per skill

= ~150 platinum per pve character

Add to that the unneeded features most players enjoy (such as perfect upgrades, dyes, or the "chest slot machine") and you get more than 200k per character.

First question: if you're not solo-farming but questing normally (with crappy drops from a full 8-man group), how long does it take to get enough much gold for each character you want to equip decently?

Second question: a quick search on ebay tells me 200 platinum = $10 so how much time do you need to make $10? Unless you're a Chinese slave, a *lot* less than what you would need to solo-farm 200k, let alone get them in a group of 8.

The conclusion is left to the reader.

Now let's review a few facts:
- ANet is perfectly aware of these basic costs.
- The size of the gold farming industry has been estimated as in the order of half a billion US dollars in 2005.
- To avoid bot very basic detection scans (such as the time spent online per day), pro farmers are controlling multiple bots (let's say 5), each of them using up to 6 accounts with 2h shifts. In some popular MMORPGs, recent studies tell us that up to 40% of active accounts are controlled by bots & macros.
- Each account is an investment for the pro farmers, and if banned, it will be replaced by a new copy. The profit made with the bot is much larger than the price of the price of the game itself. The profit made with the game publisher thanks to the replacement of botting accounts is -let's say- comfortable.
- ANet can monitor ingame gold transfers (from the farming account, to the storage account, to the reseller account, to the ebayer's account), but only closes the botting account, instead of nuking bots + storage + resellet accounts who are full of gold and valuables.

The conclusion is left to the reader.

~

PS: Ebaying for gold is bad for your karma. Don't do it.

Gun Pierson · Oct 02, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

That doesn't make it right or fair, period. I'm in that exact boat, myself. I work a lot more than I play GW, by a ratio of at least 8:1. So for each 8-hour workday, I play one hour of GW. I advocate lower prices all around for this reason - because I know there are many others like me. (and yes, I spend more time on here than in-game since I have the luxury of downtime and the internet at work -yay!-)

Anyway, if I really wanted FoW armor, I could get it. I've been playing since Janurary, and if I had saved up to get it, I have no doubt I'd have enough to get it for one of my characters. I think that's how FoW armor is supposed to work, though. If you really want it, save up, it's an end-game kinda goal. Something that's supposed to be prized.

The problem is, right now, there is so many items in the game that has much more prestige than FoW armor, knocking it down to a mere "eh" factor. It shouldn't be like that, I think. FoW armor should be the end-all be-all thing to save up for. Now? It's eBay food. Hell, got a couple of hundred bucks? Go buy ya a 15^50 crystalline. It shouldn't be like that.

Right or wrong, fair or unfair, that depends from person to person. You find it unfair, another person won't find it unfair.

The ebayers are not increasing the price of items that much imo, many other factors do like for example the release of a new chapter. The power traders and price checkers also play a part in this. I'm not for or against power traders, just like my view on ebayers. These are all just neutral observations.

FrogDevourer · Oct 02, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Is it against the rules?

Unarguably YES.
http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...sofconduct.php

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW Official Site

Please be aware that failure to comply with these rules of conduct may result in the termination of your Guild Wars game account according to the Guild Wars User Agreement.
...
#11 - You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying or selling items for cash or trading items from one server to another.

Blackhawk · Oct 02, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Rules mean diddly squat to most people though especially this one...

#1 While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.

This one......

#3 You may not use sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, racially or ethnically offensive language.

And this one...

#5 When communicating in Guild Wars using Global Chat (including, without limitation, server wide chat and use of the whisper command), you may not spam, flood, or make duplicate posts. For more information, please see the User Agreement section 4 (j).

Not being funny but you only have to sit in LA or Shing Jea for less than 5 mins to see those 3 being broken. or Cavalon and Hzh for #5 by ppl wanting taxis

AhuraMazda · Oct 02, 2006, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Anet enforce or moniter this game far too poorly.

It doesnt matter if it is bots, destroyed chat channels, constant spammed abuse, PvP being farmed or full of imbalance abusers, to constant leechers.

They are lucky the gameplay itself is unique and extremelly fun, and that this game is free, otherwise the community would have destroyed itself.

This is the biggest complaint I have with this game, that it is over run with foul mouthed kids and exploiters.

It doesnt matter how many people have FoW legitimatly, every single Botted, E-bayed, or scammed set of FoW makes the whole effort of acheiving that armour a complete farce.

Let me make one thing clear, if people do not play this game for anything other than the actual thrill of being in combat, people are going to slowly stop playing.

Therefore there is no point in armour sets like FoW, because Anet is allowing all things like, from armour to titles to ranks, to be destroyed as meaning anything, being any kind of accomplishment, and they are simply becoming pointless additions that people are just going to hack and cheat and scam their way to, to boast and mock and abuse others who dont have these things those people exploited and bought their way to.

This is GW in a nutshell outside of competitive pvp, and it is a complete farce.

We all congratulated Anet on their amazing expansion, its content, and their efforts in general since the release of Guild Wars.

Now its time they listen to us, those of us who are long time, long hour players, and are sick of this game being the worst place on the internet to hang around outside of competitive PvP.

FrogDevourer · Oct 02, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Rules mean diddly squat to most people though especially this one...

And many accounts are getting temp bans for breaking these rules (use the report button and send screenshots)... People are breaking the law (or defying the rules). It doesn't mean the law should be ignored, or that outlaws are entitled to do so. *shrug*

AhuraMazda · Oct 02, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

And many accounts are getting temp bans for breaking these rules (use the report button and send screenshots)... People are breaking the law (or defying the rules). It doesn't mean the law should be ignored, or that outlaws are entitled to do so. *shrug*

Well either Anet are simply ignoring the vast majority of complaints, or the temp bans are about a day long.

Go on, log into the game, go hit RA for a couple of fights, then go to Lions Arch to try to buy or sell something, then head to Fort Aspenwood.

Yeah the problems being fixed alright.

Its clear to us who have played for a long time that A.net chases bots around like crazy, and has a policy of either ignoring everything else thats a major negative point in this game, or are not getting our reports and emails.

arcanemacabre · Oct 02, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Right or wrong, fair or unfair, that depends from person to person. You find it unfair, another person won't find it unfair.

I pay someone for stolen diamonds. I know they're stolen. In fact, they get them from their employer who mines them illegally from someone else's owned mine. To me, this is completely fair and right. Is it? Does it depend "from person to person"?

Authorities are constantly at war with shutting down mining operations like the one I describe. Being so fervently against such operations, you think they would go lightly on those who participate on the buying and selling end?

Anet is the authorities in this case. They are constantly at war with botters and shutting down botting operations. Again, would they just go lightly with those who participate in buying and selling? Should they? Does this also depend from person to person?

AhuraMazda · Oct 02, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

The solution is simple, IP bans for botters, and account wipes for scammers, exploit farmers and foul mouthed racist punks.

GW would be a better place without these people. So get rid of them.

Gun Pierson · Oct 02, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I pay someone for stolen diamonds. I know they're stolen. In fact, they get them from their employer who mines them illegally from someone else's owned mine. To me, this is completely fair and right. Is it? Does it depend "from person to person"?

Authorities are constantly at war with shutting down mining operations like the one I describe. Being so fervently against such operations, you think they would go lightly on those who participate on the buying and selling end?

Anet is the authorities in this case. They are constantly at war with botters and shutting down botting operations. Again, would they just go lightly with those who participate in buying and selling? Should they? Does this also depend from person to person?

What law is broken here I ask you? The eula and that's no law. It's more like a guide and to secure themselves in case it comes to a lawsuit. It's not like an official document from the government that prohibits people to buy and sell game gold and they go to jail if they do. Your example of the diamonds is against the law. And even then, some people won't see it as wrong, but as a need, but they will still break the law and have to pay the consequences when caught. So yes it still depends from person to person. Just to make you aware right and wrong are subjective.

ectospasm · Oct 02, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

see Gun
see Gun farm
see Gun sell gold on ebay
see Gun fight for his right to do so
bad Gun...

lol im bored.. :/

Gun Pierson · Oct 02, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ectospasm

see Gun
see Gun farm
see Gun sell gold on ebay
see Gun fight for his right to do so
bad Gun...

lol im bored.. :/

I'm afraid my businness would not make much profit though. I don't even know how a bot program works etc. Anet can check me out any time.

mazter · Oct 02, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

i only want to say that i dont have a bot farmer,neither bought money for ebay,but after 4 months of farming i can now afford to buy 2 obsidian armors.I aggree that most of the obsidian armors are bought through ebay,but i also want to say thats not a rule..

arcanemacabre · Oct 03, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

What law is broken here I ask you? The eula and that's no law. It's more like a guide and to secure themselves in case it comes to a lawsuit. It's not like an official document from the government that prohibits people to buy and sell game gold and they go to jail if they do. Your example of the diamonds is against the law. And even then, some people won't see it as wrong, but as a need, but they will still break the law and have to pay the consequences when caught. So yes it still depends from person to person. Just to make you aware right and wrong are subjective.

No, right and wrong are only subjective when it comes to morality. Right and wrong are very objective when it's written down and upheld as rules or law. Sorry to say, but buying and selling in-game gold for cash is against the EULA rules just as much as buying and selling illegal diamonds IRL is against the law.

No you don't go to jail. But it's not a "guide and to secure themselves in case it comes to a lawsuit", either. It's simply a set of rules that they can set to give them the absolute right to refuse service at any point in time. If you break the rules, they refuse service, ie ban. Simple as that, really.

Your convoluted view of reality just may get you in trouble with the law one day. And what will you say? Pssh, your laws and concepts of right and wrong are subjective! Try that with the judge, tell me how it worked for ya.

Gun Pierson · Oct 03, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

No, right and wrong are only subjective when it comes to morality. Right and wrong are very objective when it's written down and upheld as rules or law. Sorry to say, but buying and selling in-game gold for cash is against the EULA rules just as much as buying and selling illegal diamonds IRL is against the law.

No you don't go to jail. But it's not a "guide and to secure themselves in case it comes to a lawsuit", either. It's simply a set of rules that they can set to give them the absolute right to refuse service at any point in time. If you break the rules, they refuse service, ie ban. Simple as that, really.

Your convoluted view of reality just may get you in trouble with the law one day. And what will you say? Pssh, your laws and concepts of right and wrong are subjective! Try that with the judge, tell me how it worked for ya.

I don't find it offensive someone buys ebay gold point. It can be against 100 rules, but that doesn't change my point of view. I'm also against death penalty to give you an example. It's a law in certain contries and states. That doesn't mean I have to agree with whatever law or rule is formed by a group of people.

If they form a law to genocide 5 million people, would you also see it as the rule to follow like a brain death zombie? This happened in history btw.

They can ban you that's true and they are secured when it comes to a lawsuit and a person would have to pay the consequences. All true, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the policy or with your point of view. It's way to easy to put the blame on people.

I don't see why a controversial view would get me in trouble as long as I don't act. We live in a democracy and one can express his thoughts if it's in an appropriate way ofcourse.

I find it much more immoral to rip off people than ebaying. But that's my view. I do find farming bots unfair but that's another story.

arcanemacabre · Oct 03, 2006, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Gun, again, it doesn't matter what you think, nor what I think. What I think is good, or right doesn't matter. Be fruitful and express your thoughts, no one's stopping you. Not the point.

You originally said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

If they buy gold with real money, that's their choice and they have all the right to do so because it's their real money not yours.

No one has the right to do that. Case in point. If it's against the EULA, then it's a bannable offense. Period. Doesn't matter if you or I or the President of Burundi thinks it's right or wrong, it's against the rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I don't see why a controversial view would get me in trouble as long as I don't act. We live in a democracy and one can express his thoughts if it's in an appropriate way ofcourse.

I find it much more immoral to rip off people than ebaying. But that's my view. I do find farming bots unfair but that's another story.

Confused as to why you're saying "that's another story" considering that was the whole point of this thread. Isn't that what we were talking about to begin with? -lost-

I said your view of reality would get you in trouble with the law, not because you express your opinion, but because you seem to think it's ok to do things you feel is right yourself, despite the rules or laws involved. If you don't act on your feelings, great, keep on enjoying your {pseudo} freedom.

Once you realize that there are laws in place for this very reason, the more you'll understand what right and wrong really means. Again, morality is one thing, rules and laws something else entirely.

Gun Pierson · Oct 03, 2006, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Confused as to why you're saying "that's another story" considering that was the whole point of this thread. Isn't that what we were talking about to begin with? -lost-

I make a difference between people who sell gold by using a bot and people who sell gold but farmed it themselves and didn't use a bot.

Thank you, I do enjoy my freedom of thinking.

arcanemacabre · Oct 03, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I make a difference between people who sell gold by using a bot and people who sell gold but farmed it themselves and didn't use a bot.

Then I ask, the difference is?

How do either make you feel? Why?

Me, personally? I feel both are wrong.

Reason? You're selling someone else's (Anet's) intellectual property. None of it is yours to begin with. When you buy the game, you're paying for the 'right' to play. You're buying fun, just like if you payed for a round of golf, you're borrowing use of the golf course. If you suddenly put the sand trap up for sale on eBay, I'm sure the owner would be quite upset, and most likely ban you from playing there again.

Just because you spent a lot of your free time acquiring all that gold, doesn't make it yours. You chose to spend your time in that manner, playing a game in the way you saw fit, but all you have to show for it is how you dressed up a character on Anet's server.

Gun Pierson · Oct 03, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Then I ask, the difference is?

How do either make you feel? Why?

Someone who farmed the gold not using a bot has put work into it, he accomplished something. You can see it as if he provides a service. The gold here is nothing more than a measurement of time played or effort. You can't give game gold for the service.

I provided powerlevelling in droks a while ago, 1-2k a level. They paid me ingame gold but if someone would insist to pay real money I would accept and it would not be against the eula I think as I won't sell or buy ingame items and gold. It's a service. Just like runners are.